Unbreakable Formation vs. Cry of the Carnarium The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InCan an indestructible creature die by a combination of damage and -X/-X effects?Can a non-instant or sorcery ever have flashback?do creatures created after a “all creatures get -1/-1 until end of turn” instant get -1/-1 as well?What happens when I target an indestructible card with an “if that would die this turn, exile it instead” effect?Exalted trigger timingWhat happens when a non-token creature loses all abilities, is exiled, then returns?Does the spell cast with Yahenni's Expertise resolve before state-based effects are checked?What happens if Always Watching is destroyed mid-combat?MTG: Abilities lost when exiled?Under which controller does a stolen permanent come into play after being exiled?
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Unbreakable Formation vs. Cry of the Carnarium
The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InCan an indestructible creature die by a combination of damage and -X/-X effects?Can a non-instant or sorcery ever have flashback?do creatures created after a “all creatures get -1/-1 until end of turn” instant get -1/-1 as well?What happens when I target an indestructible card with an “if that would die this turn, exile it instead” effect?Exalted trigger timingWhat happens when a non-token creature loses all abilities, is exiled, then returns?Does the spell cast with Yahenni's Expertise resolve before state-based effects are checked?What happens if Always Watching is destroyed mid-combat?MTG: Abilities lost when exiled?Under which controller does a stolen permanent come into play after being exiled?
My opponent played Cry of the Carnarium in MTG Arena. I immediately played Unbreakable Formation after. The intended result was for my creatures to not die or get exiled, but they did. Shouldn't Unbreakable Formation resolve, granting me indestructible until end of turn?
magic-the-gathering mtg-arena
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My opponent played Cry of the Carnarium in MTG Arena. I immediately played Unbreakable Formation after. The intended result was for my creatures to not die or get exiled, but they did. Shouldn't Unbreakable Formation resolve, granting me indestructible until end of turn?
magic-the-gathering mtg-arena
edited yesterday
doppelgreener
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asked yesterday
RonnieRonnie
362
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2
As discussed in the answers below, I think a lot of the confusion comes from the way MTG: arena displays loss of toughness. (+0/-2 is not equal to 2 damage, even though MTG:A displays them the same way)
– Malco
yesterday
1
This is, why a Tragic Slip on Ulamog is always funny.
– Erik
19 hours ago
add a comment |
My opponent played Cry of the Carnarium in MTG Arena. I immediately played Unbreakable Formation after. The intended result was for my creatures to not die or get exiled, but they did. Shouldn't Unbreakable Formation resolve, granting me indestructible until end of turn?
magic-the-gathering mtg-arena
edited yesterday
doppelgreener
16.2k860123
asked yesterday
RonnieRonnie
362
New contributor
Ronnie is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
My opponent played Cry of the Carnarium in MTG Arena. I immediately played Unbreakable Formation after. The intended result was for my creatures to not die or get exiled, but they did. Shouldn't Unbreakable Formation resolve, granting me indestructible until end of turn?
magic-the-gathering mtg-arena
magic-the-gathering mtg-arena
edited yesterday
doppelgreener
16.2k860123
asked yesterday
RonnieRonnie
362
New contributor
Ronnie is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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edited yesterday
doppelgreener
16.2k860123
asked yesterday
RonnieRonnie
362
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edited yesterday
doppelgreener
16.2k860123
edited yesterday
doppelgreener
16.2k860123
edited yesterday
doppelgreener
16.2k860123
16.2k860123
asked yesterday
RonnieRonnie
362
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asked yesterday
RonnieRonnie
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asked yesterday
RonnieRonnie
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362
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2
As discussed in the answers below, I think a lot of the confusion comes from the way MTG: arena displays loss of toughness. (+0/-2 is not equal to 2 damage, even though MTG:A displays them the same way)
– Malco
yesterday
1
This is, why a Tragic Slip on Ulamog is always funny.
– Erik
19 hours ago
add a comment |
2
As discussed in the answers below, I think a lot of the confusion comes from the way MTG: arena displays loss of toughness. (+0/-2 is not equal to 2 damage, even though MTG:A displays them the same way)
– Malco
yesterday
1
This is, why a Tragic Slip on Ulamog is always funny.
– Erik
19 hours ago
2
2
As discussed in the answers below, I think a lot of the confusion comes from the way MTG: arena displays loss of toughness. (+0/-2 is not equal to 2 damage, even though MTG:A displays them the same way)
– Malco
yesterday
As discussed in the answers below, I think a lot of the confusion comes from the way MTG: arena displays loss of toughness. (+0/-2 is not equal to 2 damage, even though MTG:A displays them the same way)
– Malco
yesterday
1
1
This is, why a Tragic Slip on Ulamog is always funny.
– Erik
19 hours ago
This is, why a Tragic Slip on Ulamog is always funny.
– Erik
19 hours ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
The card Unbreakable Formation will not generally save your creatures from dying from Cry of the Carnarium, because the ability Indestructible does not save creatures from dying from toughness loss.
The ability Indestructible is defined in rule 702.12b:
A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).
The rule it references, 704.5g, is part of the State-based action rules:
If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
The previous rule, 704.5f, says this:
If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.
As you can see, if a creature takes damage greater than or equal to its toughness, it is "destroyed", so Indestructible can stop it. But if a creature loses all of its toughness, it is just put into the graveyard, so Indestructible doesn't do anything about that.
Magic Arena displays damage the same way it displays toughness loss, but they are not the same thing.
answered yesterday
murgatroid99♦murgatroid99
48.1k7120203
add a comment |
Indestructible does not save a creature from dying due to having 0 toughness. It only prevents creatures from being destroyed.
702.12. Indestructible
702.12a Indestructible is a static ability.
702.12b A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).
Dying as a result of having 0 toughness is not being destroyed. A creature with 0 toughness dies because of this state-based action:
704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.
Also see this definition of destroyed in the rules:
701.7. Destroy
701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.
701.7b The only ways a permanent can be destroyed are as a result of an effect that uses the word "destroy" or as a result of the state-based actions that check for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g) or damage from a source with deathtouch (see rule 704.5h). If a permanent is put into its owner's graveyard for any other reason, it hasn't been "destroyed."
Similarly, you cannot use regeneration to prevent a creature from dying this way.
answered yesterday
GendoIkariGendoIkari
44.8k395174
add a comment |
Unbreakable Formation did make your creatures indestructible. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough to save them.
"Indestructible" means that lethal damage and 'destroy' effects won't destroy your creatures. However, if a creature had zero toughness it dies as a state-based-effect, and that isn't prevented by indestructible. Cry of the Carnarium reduces the power and toughness of your creatures, dodging indestructible.
Arena confuses this by showing damage as if it was reducing the toughness of the creature, but in actuality the effects are distinct. A 2/2 with two damage still has 2 toughness, but a 2/2 with -2/-2 has 0 toughness.
(Technically speaking, death by lethal damage is also a state-based-effect, but it's one that is specifically protected against by indestructible. )
answered yesterday
Arcanist LupusArcanist Lupus
4,2071824
add a comment |
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3 Answers
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The card Unbreakable Formation will not generally save your creatures from dying from Cry of the Carnarium, because the ability Indestructible does not save creatures from dying from toughness loss.
The ability Indestructible is defined in rule 702.12b:
A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).
The rule it references, 704.5g, is part of the State-based action rules:
If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
The previous rule, 704.5f, says this:
If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.
As you can see, if a creature takes damage greater than or equal to its toughness, it is "destroyed", so Indestructible can stop it. But if a creature loses all of its toughness, it is just put into the graveyard, so Indestructible doesn't do anything about that.
Magic Arena displays damage the same way it displays toughness loss, but they are not the same thing.
answered yesterday
murgatroid99♦murgatroid99
48.1k7120203
add a comment |
The card Unbreakable Formation will not generally save your creatures from dying from Cry of the Carnarium, because the ability Indestructible does not save creatures from dying from toughness loss.
The ability Indestructible is defined in rule 702.12b:
A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).
The rule it references, 704.5g, is part of the State-based action rules:
If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
The previous rule, 704.5f, says this:
If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.
As you can see, if a creature takes damage greater than or equal to its toughness, it is "destroyed", so Indestructible can stop it. But if a creature loses all of its toughness, it is just put into the graveyard, so Indestructible doesn't do anything about that.
Magic Arena displays damage the same way it displays toughness loss, but they are not the same thing.
answered yesterday
murgatroid99♦murgatroid99
48.1k7120203
add a comment |
The card Unbreakable Formation will not generally save your creatures from dying from Cry of the Carnarium, because the ability Indestructible does not save creatures from dying from toughness loss.
The ability Indestructible is defined in rule 702.12b:
A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).
The rule it references, 704.5g, is part of the State-based action rules:
If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
The previous rule, 704.5f, says this:
If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.
As you can see, if a creature takes damage greater than or equal to its toughness, it is "destroyed", so Indestructible can stop it. But if a creature loses all of its toughness, it is just put into the graveyard, so Indestructible doesn't do anything about that.
Magic Arena displays damage the same way it displays toughness loss, but they are not the same thing.
answered yesterday
murgatroid99♦murgatroid99
48.1k7120203
The card Unbreakable Formation will not generally save your creatures from dying from Cry of the Carnarium, because the ability Indestructible does not save creatures from dying from toughness loss.
The ability Indestructible is defined in rule 702.12b:
A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).
The rule it references, 704.5g, is part of the State-based action rules:
If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
The previous rule, 704.5f, says this:
If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.
As you can see, if a creature takes damage greater than or equal to its toughness, it is "destroyed", so Indestructible can stop it. But if a creature loses all of its toughness, it is just put into the graveyard, so Indestructible doesn't do anything about that.
Magic Arena displays damage the same way it displays toughness loss, but they are not the same thing.
answered yesterday
murgatroid99♦murgatroid99
48.1k7120203
answered yesterday
murgatroid99♦murgatroid99
48.1k7120203
answered yesterday
murgatroid99♦murgatroid99
48.1k7120203
answered yesterday
murgatroid99♦murgatroid99
48.1k7120203
48.1k7120203
add a comment |
add a comment |
Indestructible does not save a creature from dying due to having 0 toughness. It only prevents creatures from being destroyed.
702.12. Indestructible
702.12a Indestructible is a static ability.
702.12b A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).
Dying as a result of having 0 toughness is not being destroyed. A creature with 0 toughness dies because of this state-based action:
704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.
Also see this definition of destroyed in the rules:
701.7. Destroy
701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.
701.7b The only ways a permanent can be destroyed are as a result of an effect that uses the word "destroy" or as a result of the state-based actions that check for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g) or damage from a source with deathtouch (see rule 704.5h). If a permanent is put into its owner's graveyard for any other reason, it hasn't been "destroyed."
Similarly, you cannot use regeneration to prevent a creature from dying this way.
answered yesterday
GendoIkariGendoIkari
44.8k395174
add a comment |
Indestructible does not save a creature from dying due to having 0 toughness. It only prevents creatures from being destroyed.
702.12. Indestructible
702.12a Indestructible is a static ability.
702.12b A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).
Dying as a result of having 0 toughness is not being destroyed. A creature with 0 toughness dies because of this state-based action:
704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.
Also see this definition of destroyed in the rules:
701.7. Destroy
701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.
701.7b The only ways a permanent can be destroyed are as a result of an effect that uses the word "destroy" or as a result of the state-based actions that check for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g) or damage from a source with deathtouch (see rule 704.5h). If a permanent is put into its owner's graveyard for any other reason, it hasn't been "destroyed."
Similarly, you cannot use regeneration to prevent a creature from dying this way.
answered yesterday
GendoIkariGendoIkari
44.8k395174
add a comment |
Indestructible does not save a creature from dying due to having 0 toughness. It only prevents creatures from being destroyed.
702.12. Indestructible
702.12a Indestructible is a static ability.
702.12b A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).
Dying as a result of having 0 toughness is not being destroyed. A creature with 0 toughness dies because of this state-based action:
704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.
Also see this definition of destroyed in the rules:
701.7. Destroy
701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.
701.7b The only ways a permanent can be destroyed are as a result of an effect that uses the word "destroy" or as a result of the state-based actions that check for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g) or damage from a source with deathtouch (see rule 704.5h). If a permanent is put into its owner's graveyard for any other reason, it hasn't been "destroyed."
Similarly, you cannot use regeneration to prevent a creature from dying this way.
answered yesterday
GendoIkariGendoIkari
44.8k395174
Indestructible does not save a creature from dying due to having 0 toughness. It only prevents creatures from being destroyed.
702.12. Indestructible
702.12a Indestructible is a static ability.
702.12b A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).
Dying as a result of having 0 toughness is not being destroyed. A creature with 0 toughness dies because of this state-based action:
704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.
Also see this definition of destroyed in the rules:
701.7. Destroy
701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.
701.7b The only ways a permanent can be destroyed are as a result of an effect that uses the word "destroy" or as a result of the state-based actions that check for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g) or damage from a source with deathtouch (see rule 704.5h). If a permanent is put into its owner's graveyard for any other reason, it hasn't been "destroyed."
Similarly, you cannot use regeneration to prevent a creature from dying this way.
answered yesterday
GendoIkariGendoIkari
44.8k395174
answered yesterday
GendoIkariGendoIkari
44.8k395174
answered yesterday
GendoIkariGendoIkari
44.8k395174
answered yesterday
GendoIkariGendoIkari
44.8k395174
44.8k395174
add a comment |
add a comment |
Unbreakable Formation did make your creatures indestructible. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough to save them.
"Indestructible" means that lethal damage and 'destroy' effects won't destroy your creatures. However, if a creature had zero toughness it dies as a state-based-effect, and that isn't prevented by indestructible. Cry of the Carnarium reduces the power and toughness of your creatures, dodging indestructible.
Arena confuses this by showing damage as if it was reducing the toughness of the creature, but in actuality the effects are distinct. A 2/2 with two damage still has 2 toughness, but a 2/2 with -2/-2 has 0 toughness.
(Technically speaking, death by lethal damage is also a state-based-effect, but it's one that is specifically protected against by indestructible. )
answered yesterday
Arcanist LupusArcanist Lupus
4,2071824
add a comment |
Unbreakable Formation did make your creatures indestructible. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough to save them.
"Indestructible" means that lethal damage and 'destroy' effects won't destroy your creatures. However, if a creature had zero toughness it dies as a state-based-effect, and that isn't prevented by indestructible. Cry of the Carnarium reduces the power and toughness of your creatures, dodging indestructible.
Arena confuses this by showing damage as if it was reducing the toughness of the creature, but in actuality the effects are distinct. A 2/2 with two damage still has 2 toughness, but a 2/2 with -2/-2 has 0 toughness.
(Technically speaking, death by lethal damage is also a state-based-effect, but it's one that is specifically protected against by indestructible. )
answered yesterday
Arcanist LupusArcanist Lupus
4,2071824
add a comment |
Unbreakable Formation did make your creatures indestructible. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough to save them.
"Indestructible" means that lethal damage and 'destroy' effects won't destroy your creatures. However, if a creature had zero toughness it dies as a state-based-effect, and that isn't prevented by indestructible. Cry of the Carnarium reduces the power and toughness of your creatures, dodging indestructible.
Arena confuses this by showing damage as if it was reducing the toughness of the creature, but in actuality the effects are distinct. A 2/2 with two damage still has 2 toughness, but a 2/2 with -2/-2 has 0 toughness.
(Technically speaking, death by lethal damage is also a state-based-effect, but it's one that is specifically protected against by indestructible. )
answered yesterday
Arcanist LupusArcanist Lupus
4,2071824
Unbreakable Formation did make your creatures indestructible. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough to save them.
"Indestructible" means that lethal damage and 'destroy' effects won't destroy your creatures. However, if a creature had zero toughness it dies as a state-based-effect, and that isn't prevented by indestructible. Cry of the Carnarium reduces the power and toughness of your creatures, dodging indestructible.
Arena confuses this by showing damage as if it was reducing the toughness of the creature, but in actuality the effects are distinct. A 2/2 with two damage still has 2 toughness, but a 2/2 with -2/-2 has 0 toughness.
(Technically speaking, death by lethal damage is also a state-based-effect, but it's one that is specifically protected against by indestructible. )
answered yesterday
Arcanist LupusArcanist Lupus
4,2071824
answered yesterday
Arcanist LupusArcanist Lupus
4,2071824
answered yesterday
Arcanist LupusArcanist Lupus
4,2071824
answered yesterday
Arcanist LupusArcanist Lupus
4,2071824
4,2071824
add a comment |
add a comment |
Ronnie is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Ronnie is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Ronnie is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Ronnie is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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2
As discussed in the answers below, I think a lot of the confusion comes from the way MTG: arena displays loss of toughness. (+0/-2 is not equal to 2 damage, even though MTG:A displays them the same way)
– Malco
yesterday
1
This is, why a Tragic Slip on Ulamog is always funny.
– Erik
19 hours ago