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Is it possible to build an equivalent function just looking at the input and output of the original function?



The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InExperiences from reverse engineers in detecting recursive callsHow is the first jmp skipped in plt entryCall DLL export in OllyDBGIs there a way to find out which hash standard by studying the source code?IDA ignoring register changes in pseudocodeRadare2 doesn't display the whole functionStruggling with an archive file format using “encryption”Tracing function calls in x64dbgIs it possible to get the formula out of a blackbox using neural networkDoes anyone recognise following (USB,HID?) encoding method?










2















Imagine you are reverse engineering a software. This software uses a library, which is obfuscated and encrypted. The library contains a function, lets call it secret_function. This function is a pure function (i.e. it doesn't have any side effect and when called with the same arguments it returns always the same output).



Assuming i can call secret_function how may times i want, with whichever arguments i want, but i can't peek at the implementation, is it possible to build an equivalent function in another language (python for example), only analyzing the input and output values?



This is an example implementation of secret_function:





int secret_function(int a, int b) 
if (a == 234)
return b*2 - a;

return a*b;



A way to archive this i thought of is to call the function with every possible argument, (in the example 2^32 * 2^32, assuming a 32 bit int) and store all of them, to return them based on the arguments, like a giant lookup table. But this doesn't seem very efficient, if at all possible.



UPDATE:
You can assume that the function is working with fixed size arguments. So no strings or variable length arrays.










share|improve this question



















  • 3





    I think you already answered the question with your example. The special case (234) can't be detected without evaluating the function with exactly that input. A lookup-table also only works for inputs with a defined range, use strings and you will never be able to create a lookup-table.

    – FooTheBar
    17 hours ago















2















Imagine you are reverse engineering a software. This software uses a library, which is obfuscated and encrypted. The library contains a function, lets call it secret_function. This function is a pure function (i.e. it doesn't have any side effect and when called with the same arguments it returns always the same output).



Assuming i can call secret_function how may times i want, with whichever arguments i want, but i can't peek at the implementation, is it possible to build an equivalent function in another language (python for example), only analyzing the input and output values?



This is an example implementation of secret_function:





int secret_function(int a, int b) 
if (a == 234)
return b*2 - a;

return a*b;



A way to archive this i thought of is to call the function with every possible argument, (in the example 2^32 * 2^32, assuming a 32 bit int) and store all of them, to return them based on the arguments, like a giant lookup table. But this doesn't seem very efficient, if at all possible.



UPDATE:
You can assume that the function is working with fixed size arguments. So no strings or variable length arrays.










share|improve this question



















  • 3





    I think you already answered the question with your example. The special case (234) can't be detected without evaluating the function with exactly that input. A lookup-table also only works for inputs with a defined range, use strings and you will never be able to create a lookup-table.

    – FooTheBar
    17 hours ago













2












2








2


1






Imagine you are reverse engineering a software. This software uses a library, which is obfuscated and encrypted. The library contains a function, lets call it secret_function. This function is a pure function (i.e. it doesn't have any side effect and when called with the same arguments it returns always the same output).



Assuming i can call secret_function how may times i want, with whichever arguments i want, but i can't peek at the implementation, is it possible to build an equivalent function in another language (python for example), only analyzing the input and output values?



This is an example implementation of secret_function:





int secret_function(int a, int b) 
if (a == 234)
return b*2 - a;

return a*b;



A way to archive this i thought of is to call the function with every possible argument, (in the example 2^32 * 2^32, assuming a 32 bit int) and store all of them, to return them based on the arguments, like a giant lookup table. But this doesn't seem very efficient, if at all possible.



UPDATE:
You can assume that the function is working with fixed size arguments. So no strings or variable length arrays.










share|improve this question
















Imagine you are reverse engineering a software. This software uses a library, which is obfuscated and encrypted. The library contains a function, lets call it secret_function. This function is a pure function (i.e. it doesn't have any side effect and when called with the same arguments it returns always the same output).



Assuming i can call secret_function how may times i want, with whichever arguments i want, but i can't peek at the implementation, is it possible to build an equivalent function in another language (python for example), only analyzing the input and output values?



This is an example implementation of secret_function:





int secret_function(int a, int b) 
if (a == 234)
return b*2 - a;

return a*b;



A way to archive this i thought of is to call the function with every possible argument, (in the example 2^32 * 2^32, assuming a 32 bit int) and store all of them, to return them based on the arguments, like a giant lookup table. But this doesn't seem very efficient, if at all possible.



UPDATE:
You can assume that the function is working with fixed size arguments. So no strings or variable length arrays.







functions hash-functions






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 11 hours ago







Rocco Mancin

















asked 20 hours ago









Rocco MancinRocco Mancin

6113




6113







  • 3





    I think you already answered the question with your example. The special case (234) can't be detected without evaluating the function with exactly that input. A lookup-table also only works for inputs with a defined range, use strings and you will never be able to create a lookup-table.

    – FooTheBar
    17 hours ago












  • 3





    I think you already answered the question with your example. The special case (234) can't be detected without evaluating the function with exactly that input. A lookup-table also only works for inputs with a defined range, use strings and you will never be able to create a lookup-table.

    – FooTheBar
    17 hours ago







3




3





I think you already answered the question with your example. The special case (234) can't be detected without evaluating the function with exactly that input. A lookup-table also only works for inputs with a defined range, use strings and you will never be able to create a lookup-table.

– FooTheBar
17 hours ago





I think you already answered the question with your example. The special case (234) can't be detected without evaluating the function with exactly that input. A lookup-table also only works for inputs with a defined range, use strings and you will never be able to create a lookup-table.

– FooTheBar
17 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















5














Your problem seems to be related to what Sibyl aim at doing (https://github.com/cea-sec/Sibyl).
It tries based on the side effects of the function (return value, memory writes, ...) to identify a known function.
Of course, you will need a kind of database to "learn" the function !






share|improve this answer








New contributor




Caroline is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.



























    3














    If you have all the possible input and all the expected outputs, and they're not indistinguishable from encrypted/compressed data, you can find more efficient storage mechanisms than just having a large lookup table. Even a simple genetic algorithm can very quickly get you to "use a * b, unless a == 234" (I've actually made a solver specifically for this kind of problem, though in a more general mathematical formula case). In the end, it's a rather ordinary optimization problem, where you're balancing off the storage space, computation and preparation time needed to give the correct result. More complicated algorithms can take longer to solve, which is one of the reasons why encryption works - those algorithms are specifically designed to make it extremely labor intensive to go from a set of known inputs and outputs to the private key used for the encryption.



    But in any case, to have certainty, you must try all possible inputs. That's easy enough (though certainly laborious) for a couple integers, but quickly gets untenable for something like a string.






    share|improve this answer








    New contributor




    Luaan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.




















    • The genetic algorithm you cited sounds interesting, have you got any example of that? Can genetic algorithms still be efficient if the number of possible inputs increases?

      – Rocco Mancin
      13 hours ago











    • @RoccoMancin The number of inputs isn't really what makes the whole process slower (besides the verification); genetic algorithms will tend to take longer to find the solution as the problem becomes more complex (more branching, more complex operations). But of course, for any algorithm you choose, there will always be the step where you need to check all the possible inputs against all the expected outputs if you need 100% accuracy (and even then, only assuming the same inputs always produce the same output).

      – Luaan
      11 hours ago











    • I have a simple genetic solver available on GitHub (github.com/Luaancz/SalemOptimizer); it's adapted from a more general solver I made some time ago. This particular one only has one "operation" (called branch; today I'd probably go with "expression" or "node"), but that's only because the problem only really needs one - the same approach can easily be used with multiple operations, though. For a math solver, those would be things like add, multiply etc.

      – Luaan
      11 hours ago


















    3














    Unless you try all the input possibilities, as you suggested, you can only get an approximation of the function. This is basically one of the basic problems in the machine learning field, so I would look that way instead of trying to generate a lookup table for 2^32 * 2^32 values.



    You should obviously be careful that you won't have 100% guarantee that the function is equivalent and also remember that in particular fields how the output is computed is as important as the output itself. Take encryption functions: having the same outputs but exposing informations (due to memory leaks, power usage spikes and so on) for side channel attacks means that the "equivalent" function is in fact far worse than the original (to the point it might not be a suitable replacement).






    share|improve this answer








    New contributor




    frollo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.




















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      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes








      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      5














      Your problem seems to be related to what Sibyl aim at doing (https://github.com/cea-sec/Sibyl).
      It tries based on the side effects of the function (return value, memory writes, ...) to identify a known function.
      Of course, you will need a kind of database to "learn" the function !






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      Caroline is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.
























        5














        Your problem seems to be related to what Sibyl aim at doing (https://github.com/cea-sec/Sibyl).
        It tries based on the side effects of the function (return value, memory writes, ...) to identify a known function.
        Of course, you will need a kind of database to "learn" the function !






        share|improve this answer








        New contributor




        Caroline is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.






















          5












          5








          5







          Your problem seems to be related to what Sibyl aim at doing (https://github.com/cea-sec/Sibyl).
          It tries based on the side effects of the function (return value, memory writes, ...) to identify a known function.
          Of course, you will need a kind of database to "learn" the function !






          share|improve this answer








          New contributor




          Caroline is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.










          Your problem seems to be related to what Sibyl aim at doing (https://github.com/cea-sec/Sibyl).
          It tries based on the side effects of the function (return value, memory writes, ...) to identify a known function.
          Of course, you will need a kind of database to "learn" the function !







          share|improve this answer








          New contributor




          Caroline is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.









          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer






          New contributor




          Caroline is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.









          answered 19 hours ago









          CarolineCaroline

          511




          511




          New contributor




          Caroline is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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          New contributor





          Caroline is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.






          Caroline is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.





















              3














              If you have all the possible input and all the expected outputs, and they're not indistinguishable from encrypted/compressed data, you can find more efficient storage mechanisms than just having a large lookup table. Even a simple genetic algorithm can very quickly get you to "use a * b, unless a == 234" (I've actually made a solver specifically for this kind of problem, though in a more general mathematical formula case). In the end, it's a rather ordinary optimization problem, where you're balancing off the storage space, computation and preparation time needed to give the correct result. More complicated algorithms can take longer to solve, which is one of the reasons why encryption works - those algorithms are specifically designed to make it extremely labor intensive to go from a set of known inputs and outputs to the private key used for the encryption.



              But in any case, to have certainty, you must try all possible inputs. That's easy enough (though certainly laborious) for a couple integers, but quickly gets untenable for something like a string.






              share|improve this answer








              New contributor




              Luaan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.




















              • The genetic algorithm you cited sounds interesting, have you got any example of that? Can genetic algorithms still be efficient if the number of possible inputs increases?

                – Rocco Mancin
                13 hours ago











              • @RoccoMancin The number of inputs isn't really what makes the whole process slower (besides the verification); genetic algorithms will tend to take longer to find the solution as the problem becomes more complex (more branching, more complex operations). But of course, for any algorithm you choose, there will always be the step where you need to check all the possible inputs against all the expected outputs if you need 100% accuracy (and even then, only assuming the same inputs always produce the same output).

                – Luaan
                11 hours ago











              • I have a simple genetic solver available on GitHub (github.com/Luaancz/SalemOptimizer); it's adapted from a more general solver I made some time ago. This particular one only has one "operation" (called branch; today I'd probably go with "expression" or "node"), but that's only because the problem only really needs one - the same approach can easily be used with multiple operations, though. For a math solver, those would be things like add, multiply etc.

                – Luaan
                11 hours ago















              3














              If you have all the possible input and all the expected outputs, and they're not indistinguishable from encrypted/compressed data, you can find more efficient storage mechanisms than just having a large lookup table. Even a simple genetic algorithm can very quickly get you to "use a * b, unless a == 234" (I've actually made a solver specifically for this kind of problem, though in a more general mathematical formula case). In the end, it's a rather ordinary optimization problem, where you're balancing off the storage space, computation and preparation time needed to give the correct result. More complicated algorithms can take longer to solve, which is one of the reasons why encryption works - those algorithms are specifically designed to make it extremely labor intensive to go from a set of known inputs and outputs to the private key used for the encryption.



              But in any case, to have certainty, you must try all possible inputs. That's easy enough (though certainly laborious) for a couple integers, but quickly gets untenable for something like a string.






              share|improve this answer








              New contributor




              Luaan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.




















              • The genetic algorithm you cited sounds interesting, have you got any example of that? Can genetic algorithms still be efficient if the number of possible inputs increases?

                – Rocco Mancin
                13 hours ago











              • @RoccoMancin The number of inputs isn't really what makes the whole process slower (besides the verification); genetic algorithms will tend to take longer to find the solution as the problem becomes more complex (more branching, more complex operations). But of course, for any algorithm you choose, there will always be the step where you need to check all the possible inputs against all the expected outputs if you need 100% accuracy (and even then, only assuming the same inputs always produce the same output).

                – Luaan
                11 hours ago











              • I have a simple genetic solver available on GitHub (github.com/Luaancz/SalemOptimizer); it's adapted from a more general solver I made some time ago. This particular one only has one "operation" (called branch; today I'd probably go with "expression" or "node"), but that's only because the problem only really needs one - the same approach can easily be used with multiple operations, though. For a math solver, those would be things like add, multiply etc.

                – Luaan
                11 hours ago













              3












              3








              3







              If you have all the possible input and all the expected outputs, and they're not indistinguishable from encrypted/compressed data, you can find more efficient storage mechanisms than just having a large lookup table. Even a simple genetic algorithm can very quickly get you to "use a * b, unless a == 234" (I've actually made a solver specifically for this kind of problem, though in a more general mathematical formula case). In the end, it's a rather ordinary optimization problem, where you're balancing off the storage space, computation and preparation time needed to give the correct result. More complicated algorithms can take longer to solve, which is one of the reasons why encryption works - those algorithms are specifically designed to make it extremely labor intensive to go from a set of known inputs and outputs to the private key used for the encryption.



              But in any case, to have certainty, you must try all possible inputs. That's easy enough (though certainly laborious) for a couple integers, but quickly gets untenable for something like a string.






              share|improve this answer








              New contributor




              Luaan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.










              If you have all the possible input and all the expected outputs, and they're not indistinguishable from encrypted/compressed data, you can find more efficient storage mechanisms than just having a large lookup table. Even a simple genetic algorithm can very quickly get you to "use a * b, unless a == 234" (I've actually made a solver specifically for this kind of problem, though in a more general mathematical formula case). In the end, it's a rather ordinary optimization problem, where you're balancing off the storage space, computation and preparation time needed to give the correct result. More complicated algorithms can take longer to solve, which is one of the reasons why encryption works - those algorithms are specifically designed to make it extremely labor intensive to go from a set of known inputs and outputs to the private key used for the encryption.



              But in any case, to have certainty, you must try all possible inputs. That's easy enough (though certainly laborious) for a couple integers, but quickly gets untenable for something like a string.







              share|improve this answer








              New contributor




              Luaan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.









              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer






              New contributor




              Luaan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.









              answered 17 hours ago









              LuaanLuaan

              1313




              1313




              New contributor




              Luaan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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              New contributor





              Luaan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.






              Luaan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.












              • The genetic algorithm you cited sounds interesting, have you got any example of that? Can genetic algorithms still be efficient if the number of possible inputs increases?

                – Rocco Mancin
                13 hours ago











              • @RoccoMancin The number of inputs isn't really what makes the whole process slower (besides the verification); genetic algorithms will tend to take longer to find the solution as the problem becomes more complex (more branching, more complex operations). But of course, for any algorithm you choose, there will always be the step where you need to check all the possible inputs against all the expected outputs if you need 100% accuracy (and even then, only assuming the same inputs always produce the same output).

                – Luaan
                11 hours ago











              • I have a simple genetic solver available on GitHub (github.com/Luaancz/SalemOptimizer); it's adapted from a more general solver I made some time ago. This particular one only has one "operation" (called branch; today I'd probably go with "expression" or "node"), but that's only because the problem only really needs one - the same approach can easily be used with multiple operations, though. For a math solver, those would be things like add, multiply etc.

                – Luaan
                11 hours ago

















              • The genetic algorithm you cited sounds interesting, have you got any example of that? Can genetic algorithms still be efficient if the number of possible inputs increases?

                – Rocco Mancin
                13 hours ago











              • @RoccoMancin The number of inputs isn't really what makes the whole process slower (besides the verification); genetic algorithms will tend to take longer to find the solution as the problem becomes more complex (more branching, more complex operations). But of course, for any algorithm you choose, there will always be the step where you need to check all the possible inputs against all the expected outputs if you need 100% accuracy (and even then, only assuming the same inputs always produce the same output).

                – Luaan
                11 hours ago











              • I have a simple genetic solver available on GitHub (github.com/Luaancz/SalemOptimizer); it's adapted from a more general solver I made some time ago. This particular one only has one "operation" (called branch; today I'd probably go with "expression" or "node"), but that's only because the problem only really needs one - the same approach can easily be used with multiple operations, though. For a math solver, those would be things like add, multiply etc.

                – Luaan
                11 hours ago
















              The genetic algorithm you cited sounds interesting, have you got any example of that? Can genetic algorithms still be efficient if the number of possible inputs increases?

              – Rocco Mancin
              13 hours ago





              The genetic algorithm you cited sounds interesting, have you got any example of that? Can genetic algorithms still be efficient if the number of possible inputs increases?

              – Rocco Mancin
              13 hours ago













              @RoccoMancin The number of inputs isn't really what makes the whole process slower (besides the verification); genetic algorithms will tend to take longer to find the solution as the problem becomes more complex (more branching, more complex operations). But of course, for any algorithm you choose, there will always be the step where you need to check all the possible inputs against all the expected outputs if you need 100% accuracy (and even then, only assuming the same inputs always produce the same output).

              – Luaan
              11 hours ago





              @RoccoMancin The number of inputs isn't really what makes the whole process slower (besides the verification); genetic algorithms will tend to take longer to find the solution as the problem becomes more complex (more branching, more complex operations). But of course, for any algorithm you choose, there will always be the step where you need to check all the possible inputs against all the expected outputs if you need 100% accuracy (and even then, only assuming the same inputs always produce the same output).

              – Luaan
              11 hours ago













              I have a simple genetic solver available on GitHub (github.com/Luaancz/SalemOptimizer); it's adapted from a more general solver I made some time ago. This particular one only has one "operation" (called branch; today I'd probably go with "expression" or "node"), but that's only because the problem only really needs one - the same approach can easily be used with multiple operations, though. For a math solver, those would be things like add, multiply etc.

              – Luaan
              11 hours ago





              I have a simple genetic solver available on GitHub (github.com/Luaancz/SalemOptimizer); it's adapted from a more general solver I made some time ago. This particular one only has one "operation" (called branch; today I'd probably go with "expression" or "node"), but that's only because the problem only really needs one - the same approach can easily be used with multiple operations, though. For a math solver, those would be things like add, multiply etc.

              – Luaan
              11 hours ago











              3














              Unless you try all the input possibilities, as you suggested, you can only get an approximation of the function. This is basically one of the basic problems in the machine learning field, so I would look that way instead of trying to generate a lookup table for 2^32 * 2^32 values.



              You should obviously be careful that you won't have 100% guarantee that the function is equivalent and also remember that in particular fields how the output is computed is as important as the output itself. Take encryption functions: having the same outputs but exposing informations (due to memory leaks, power usage spikes and so on) for side channel attacks means that the "equivalent" function is in fact far worse than the original (to the point it might not be a suitable replacement).






              share|improve this answer








              New contributor




              frollo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.
























                3














                Unless you try all the input possibilities, as you suggested, you can only get an approximation of the function. This is basically one of the basic problems in the machine learning field, so I would look that way instead of trying to generate a lookup table for 2^32 * 2^32 values.



                You should obviously be careful that you won't have 100% guarantee that the function is equivalent and also remember that in particular fields how the output is computed is as important as the output itself. Take encryption functions: having the same outputs but exposing informations (due to memory leaks, power usage spikes and so on) for side channel attacks means that the "equivalent" function is in fact far worse than the original (to the point it might not be a suitable replacement).






                share|improve this answer








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                  Unless you try all the input possibilities, as you suggested, you can only get an approximation of the function. This is basically one of the basic problems in the machine learning field, so I would look that way instead of trying to generate a lookup table for 2^32 * 2^32 values.



                  You should obviously be careful that you won't have 100% guarantee that the function is equivalent and also remember that in particular fields how the output is computed is as important as the output itself. Take encryption functions: having the same outputs but exposing informations (due to memory leaks, power usage spikes and so on) for side channel attacks means that the "equivalent" function is in fact far worse than the original (to the point it might not be a suitable replacement).






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                  Unless you try all the input possibilities, as you suggested, you can only get an approximation of the function. This is basically one of the basic problems in the machine learning field, so I would look that way instead of trying to generate a lookup table for 2^32 * 2^32 values.



                  You should obviously be careful that you won't have 100% guarantee that the function is equivalent and also remember that in particular fields how the output is computed is as important as the output itself. Take encryption functions: having the same outputs but exposing informations (due to memory leaks, power usage spikes and so on) for side channel attacks means that the "equivalent" function is in fact far worse than the original (to the point it might not be a suitable replacement).







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                  answered 14 hours ago









                  frollofrollo

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